“Odder Stories” Accuses Me of Racism

How, as a Christian apologist, do I gauge how well I’m doing? By this verse:

If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. (Jn 15:19, emphasis added)

I figure if the secular world hates what I have to say, then I must be doing a pretty darn good job.  Conversely, if the Christian world loves me, then I must also be doing a pretty good job.  From the comments that I receive, I see compliments from Christians (HT: Murphy Klasing and Wickle), and denigration from the world.

The most recent worldly accusation against me is to accuse me of 18th century racism for an old post on homosexuality.  Unlike most Christians, I am allowing for the possibility that homosexuality may not be a choice.  But along the same regard, neither is alcoholism or rage.  Those things are genetic, too.  Does anyone believe that they are good things, or are they things that we may struggle with but ultimately should eliminate for the good of all?  Odder Stories says:

If you see echoes of 18th century racism, you’re not alone. In what sense is homosexuality like an addiction or anger issues? Why is it a ‘corrupting influence’? For one reason only: the Bible tells us that it is. It’s against ‘God’s plan’. We must ’surrender to God through Jesus Christ’, in the process attempting to deaden a major part of ourselves. As any honest advocate of this process will admit, this does not get rid of homosexuality, it merely teaches you to live with it by giving yourself over to what, at times, is indistinguishable from a cult.

He is absolutely correct in everything that he states.  Christianity asks us to die to our former selves, of which homosexuality may be a part for some people.  Like me having to die to my anger issues and other more serious addictions, the homosexual in service to the Lord must die to his homosexuality.

I freely admit that the only reason to argue against homosexuality is that the Bible says that it is a sin.  There are no secular grounds whatsoever for arguing against it.

I feel that I’m an honest advocate of that position since I admit that the feelings never go away.  There is not a day where I don’t struggle with my more serious addiction.  Not a single day.  But I’m struggling with it because I know God does not permit it, and I know that He will give me the strength to endure to the end.  The homosexual can find that strength, too, if he or she looks to Jesus Christ.

About Cory Tucholski

I'm a born-again Christian, amateur apologist and philosopher, father of 3. Want to know more? Check the "About" page!

Posted on June 6, 2008, in Apologetics, Morality, Sin and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink. 23 Comments.

  1. For the record, I never actually accused you of racism.

    If there are no secular grounds for arguing against homosexuality, would it be fair to say that practically all opposition to homosexuality today is religiously motivated?

  2. If there are no secular grounds for arguing against homosexuality, would it be fair to say that practically all opposition to homosexuality today is religiously motivated?

    Yes, it would be fair to say that.

  3. What about discrimination and prejudice against homosexuals? Where, in your opinion, does that tend to come from?

  4. What about discrimination and prejudice against homosexuals? Where, in your opinion, does that tend to come from?

    Same place as discrimination and prejudice always come from: ignorance.

  5. Yes, I’d agree with you there. Thanks for your time.

  6. Unlike most Christians, I am allowing for the possibility that homosexuality may not be a choice.

    I think you have hit upon a very important point, one that I’ve been trying to make for awhile. Actually I have had a 63% completed blog post waiting to go on this for about 3 months, just haven’t had the time to finish up some research I really wanted to do.

    Anyway, I think what many of us who have no problem with homosexuality have done is to try jump over the “understanding” and get straight to “acceptance”. If homosexuality is natural then how can anyone (especially “those Christians”) argue with something that is natural. A Christian doesn’t have to understand homosexuality they just have to accept it.

    You rightly point out the very problem with the logic. Just because it’s natural doesn’t make it good. There is no doubt in my mind that pedophilia comes “naturally” to some but that certainly doesn’t make it acceptable.

    As a thought experiment, if homosexuality were to be proven conclusively (by whatever standard you would accept, scientific, religious, whatever) to be a choice it would not change my views on homosexuality one bit.

    Fine, it’s a choice and people are free to choose it and it’s quite frankly unimportant whether I accept it or not because it is their choice as a human.

    I freely admit that the only reason to argue against homosexuality is that the Bible says that it is a sin. There are no secular grounds whatsoever for arguing against it.

    You know what I like about this statement? It’s because it’s a pure conviction. I often hear (Christians in particular) follow that very statement up with “plus it’s…” and then list out problems with being a homosexual, physical or emotional, of course, most of their laundry list is based on ignorance but that’s beside the point.

    It’s like they need additional justification either to themselves or to others for why they disagree with homosexuality. Seriously, grow a pair and just say “I don’t like homosexuality because the Bible tells me it’s wrong. Period.” all other justifications are irrelevent. I disagree with the statement but I can respect the intellectual honesty that goes into making that statement.

  7. I’d just like to point out how bizarre it is when people claim to be tolerant or understanding, and then compare homsexuality to pedophilia or addiction. (I’m mainly talking about Christians who are arguing against homosexuality). That’s more than a little bit insulting, and it’s not really the right tactic to use if you’re trying to reach out to someone.

  8. I’d just like to point out how bizarre it is when people claim to be tolerant or understanding, and then compare homsexuality to pedophilia or addiction. (I’m mainly talking about Christians who are arguing against homosexuality).

    In what sense is it bizarre? It’s only “bizarre” if your position is demonstrably *true*…which it is NOT. The Christian’s contention is that homosexuality is wrong…and base that on God’s Word. I, for one, am a tolerant person…you would disagree with me on that term…but I would disagree that acceptance of deviant behavior is “tolerance”…a better word is “desensitized”.

    That’s more than a little bit insulting, and it’s not really the right tactic to use if you’re trying to reach out to someone.

    How do you reach out to pedophiles? What caring tactic would you employ?

  9. For a moment, try to stop thinking with the Bible and ground yourself in the real world. You’re comparing people who are attracted to adults of the same sex – people who, even if they act upon their attraction, harm nobody – to people who are attracted to young children and who, if they were to act on their attraction, would by definition be committing child abuse.

    I mean, you must see the difference here. I’m not going to insult your intelligence by thinking that you’re that religion-addled. Would you really say to a gay person ‘I’m tolerant of you and love you…but I’d readily compare you to a pedophile’?

  10. For a moment, try to stop thinking with the Bible and ground yourself in the real world.

    I’m firmly planted in reality, thank you very much.

    You’re comparing people who are attracted to adults of the same sex – people who, even if they act upon their attraction, harm nobody – to people who are attracted to young children and who, if they were to act on their attraction, would by definition be committing child abuse.

    I’m saying both pedophilia and homosexuality are sexual deviancies.

    “Harm” is a tricky word for you to use to determine right and wrong…what is harmful? What makes “harm” bad?.

    Would you really say to a gay person ‘I’m tolerant of you and love you…but I’d readily compare you to a pedophile’?

    To be clear, I’m not “tolerant” of a person’s homosexual deviancy. I’m toleran in so far that I tolerate differences that are not at the core, immoral…like I said before, “tolerant” is not the proper description of one who accepts homosexuality…morally retarded or devoid of conscience are better descriptors.

  11. What is harmful? I would assume that we can both agree that raping a child is harmful to the child. If not, I’ll take it as a sign that you’ve gone off the deep end.

    I don’t know, though. In the ‘all sin is equal’ view of the world – one held by people who are not ‘morally retarded’, as I understand – I suppose that having consensual (but ungodly!) sex is no different to raping a child. I mean, both would equally be condemned and forgiven by Jesus, wouldn’t they? What would you say is the difference, qualitatively or quantitatively, between the two?

  12. would assume that we can both agree that raping a child is harmful to the child. If not, I’ll take it as a sign that you’ve gone off the deep end.

    You didn’t answer my question…you merely tried to call into question my sanity (ad hominem) without accounting for “right” and “wrong” from your point of view.

    The unbeliever will typically tell the Christian to stop thinking biblically…and enter the “real world”…thereby calling into question the Christian’s standard for right and wrong…when a Christian takes an unbeliever to task on his standard for right and wrong…well, I’ve simply come to expect ad hom with an extra serving of evasion.

    C’mon vitaminbook…explain reality to me. Surely your worldview provides you with the building blocks of moral “oughtness” and “ought not-ness”. I won’t call your intelligence into question…I’m sure you’ve thought through the implications of your worldview.

  13. I’ve already explained exactly why I see a difference between having sex with a young child and having sex with a consenting adult. A child cannot give consent and the psychological, emotional and physical pain caused by an adult raping a child is both great and well-documented.

    Could you show the same courtesy and explain how, according to your worldview, raping a child is worse than having homosexual sex? Why is one worse than the other?

  14. I’ve already explained exactly why I see a difference between having sex with a young child and having sex with a consenting adult.

    You’re merely begging the question. I’m not asking what the difference between sodomy and pedophilia is…I’m asking you to explain how your worldview accounts for morality.

    Could you show the same courtesy and explain how, according to your worldview, raping a child is worse than having homosexual sex? Why is one worse than the other?

    According to the Bible…both of those things are really, really, really bad. I would say that pedophilia is worse than homosexuality based on God’s revealed Word, the Bible.

    I know you say pedophilia is worse…but can you even account for why it is wrong? You told me to step into reality…I’m asking you to help me into yours.

    Take a few moments…think about it…then answer if you like. If it’s just a rapid fire response where you don’t try to address the question…I’ll just assume this will be fruitless. I’ve debated this with many, many, many atheists…try to surprise me, because in the end, every atheist I’ve talked to admits they cannot account for morality.

  15. According to the Bible…both of those things are really, really, really bad. I would say that pedophilia is worse than homosexuality based on God’s revealed Word, the Bible.

    Which part says that in the Bible?

    I know you say pedophilia is worse…but can you even account for why it is wrong? You told me to step into reality…I’m asking you to help me into yours.

    Merely being attracted to children is not, on its own, wrong. Nobody is harmed simply because someone feels sexual attraction towards a child. What’s wrong is a person actually raping a child. As I’ve already said (twice), the harm done to a child when they’re raped is enormous on all accounts.

    When somebody harms another person, whether it be physical harm (shooting someone for no reason) emotional harm (harrassment, discrimination, what have you) or impinging on someone else’s rights, they’re doing something wrong. There’s a reason why nobody says that a tornado destroying a house and killing the family inside is morally wrong, but why they would say that someone blowing up the same house with a bomb – with the exact same results – is. A tornado does not decide to kill people; death is simply a result of its existence. A man with a bomb, though, must make the choice to detonate it, knowing that it may well kill people. We (or I, at any rate) say that a person like that has committed a wrongful act based on the harm that he does.

    I rather suspect that the atheists you’ve talked to in the past have simply given up out of frustration. I’ve also spoken to many, many, many Christians on this topic, most of whom simply ran me around in circles until I walked away, at which point they declared victory by default.

  16. Which part says that in the Bible?

    All over the Bible it talks about sexual immorality. I will not find a passage that explicitly says “pedophilia is worse than homosexuality”, but because the Biblical worldview affords me rationality, I may use deductive inference. Here’s what the bible says about homosexuality:

    Lev 20:13 ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    Pedophilia falls under the category of rape. We see that it deserves death (just like sodomy) in Deuteronomy:

    Deut 22:25 “But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter.

    Many times, pedophilia is accompanied by kidnapping…here’s what Scripture says about kidnapping:

    Deut 24:7 “If a man is found kidnapping any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and mistreats him or sells him, then that kidnapper shall die; and you shall put away the evil from among you.

    By deductive inference…I’d say it’s doubly worse than sodomy since kidnapping and molestation are involved…but let’s consider what Jesus says about children:

    Matt 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

    Molestation is a grievous evil to commit against children…and Jesus speaks here of simply causing a child to sin…while the child suffering from molestation is not sinning in that act, it is likely that child will suffer all kinds of spiritual torment and even temptations he doesn’t understand as a result…it would be better for the molestor if he’d never been born. This leads me to believe his sufferings in hell will be particularly worse than the homosexual, even.

    Nobody is harmed simply because someone feels sexual attraction towards a child. What’s wrong is a person actually raping a child. As I’ve already said (twice), the harm done to a child when they’re raped is enormous on all accounts.

    Perhaps the suffering the child experiences is the result of religion…it is a memeplex. From your worldview, wouldn’t it follow that if homosexuality is a-okay then pedophilia may as well? Shame, we are often told by atheists, is a result of an oppressive religion. Maybe children today suffer from molestation, but it may be that the memeplex needs to be gotten rid of. Perhaps more children need to be molested.

    Of course, you would view the temporal suffering of being “violated” as wrong…but a violation of rights presupposes a standard for right and wrong. Where do you get such a standard? If it is from the sense of being violated, then moral questions are only answerable at the individual level and grand sweeping statements of “ought” and “ought not” cannot be made.

    We (or I, at any rate) say that a person like that has committed a wrongful act based on the harm that he does.

    Again, to say something is “harmful” is to presuppose good and evil…where does your standard come from, and what makes it universally applicable to all persons at all times?

  17. There is no objective standard of good and evil, nor is any moral system universally applicable. The ‘confusion’ you’re having over this issue (and I really doubt you are under any confusion) is because you view the world in a way that does assume good and evil as objective concepts, external from human thoughts and actions.

    As for the Biblical ‘justification’ for pedophilia being worse than homosexuality…well, I’m not buying it. It’s funny, but I’ve been told by many people in the past that ‘sin is sin’, and that no one sin is considered worse in the eyes of Jesus than any others. Were they all wrong? Should I quote you in the future when people feed me this line?

  18. There is no objective standard of good and evil, nor is any moral system universally applicable

    You’ve essentially conceded what other atheists have…you cannot account for morality. Saying there is no objective standard is really just one step away from saying there is no standard…I’m saddened to think you may end up agreeing with the wicked statment that more children may need molesting. I know you’ll disagree with me on that statement being an implication of atheism and the theory of memes, but the fact you didn’t get into a defense of subjectivism is telling…I don’t blame you for not making an argument, your position is indefensible.

    Rejecting God is irrational and is the result of spiritual rebellion against God, His Word, and His Only Begotten Son…and the implications of such a worldview creates a hellish system of belief even before being cast into Hell. I hope God has planned better things for you, like repentance and faith in Christ for forgiveness.

    As for the Biblical ‘justification’ for pedophilia being worse than homosexuality…well, I’m not buying it. It’s funny, but I’ve been told by many people in the past that ’sin is sin’, and that no one sin is considered worse in the eyes of Jesus than any others. Were they all wrong? Should I quote you in the future when people feed me this line?

    Feel free to quote me…not many Christians consider the implications of Biblical Law and the more “difficult” sayings of Jesus…and yes, Christians who say ‘no one sin is worse in God’s eyes than another” are wrong’.

  19. *groan*

    This is starting to remind me of those endless, merry-go-around evolution debates that Creationists are so fond of. Saying that there’s no objective standard for morality is not the same thing as saying ‘There’s no morality’. Whole swathes of moral philosophers over the ages have argued from this point of view. My viewpoint does not mean that I’m entertaining the idea of child molestation being a good thing (I don’t know where you got that idea from.)

    Is there some sort of ‘hierarchy of sins’ that most Christians agree on? Something prepared by a large, mainstream church, maybe? I imagine such a list would useful to have around.

  20. You didn’t actually argue anything.

    To follow suite, let me just say this is going like every discussion I’ve had with atheists…the Christian’s foundational presuppositions are assumed wrong ipso facto while the atheistic presuppositions are taken forgranted…to question them is the height of idiocy…or so Christians are led to believe.

    I can’t wait till the height of intllectual discourse for Christianity is to merely dismiss your arguments without actually arguing anything.

  21. I’m not going to argue anything. I’m sure you realize that I’m not going to change your mind on this, and pointing at the Bible repeatedly certainly isn’t going to say me. In particular, I tend to abandon an argument as soon as the threat of hell or attempts at converting me come into it; there just isn’t any point.

  1. Pingback: Nature of Sin « Odder Stories

  2. Pingback: Antipelagian vs. Vitaminbook « Josiah Concept Ministries

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: