If Heaven is Real…
Mark from Proud Atheists has a post with three simple questions about heaven. Let’s look at them.
Why are only 144,000 going to enter heaven? Well, that’s a misreading of the text if I ever saw one. Revelation 14:4 says that these are redeemed as firstfruits from mankind–that means that the 144,000 are the first of the entrants to heaven.
Where is heaven? Heaven is a separate place from this universe; it is not located within the bounds of this space. Why do atheists assume that this universe is all that there is, then impose that assumption on biblical texts?
Why are Christians afraid to die? You assume that because Christians take medicine and receive medical treatment that that means we’re afraid to die? By no means. There is nothing in the Bible that prevents Christians from extending their lives by simply taking care of themselves properly and availing themselves of modern science. Each person on this earth is here because God has a plan for his life, and the longer said person lives, the more that God can accomplish through him. Why not live longer if that is possible?
Here’s a better question for the atheist: if you don’t believe in heaven, then why spend anytime at all thinking up these questions? Isn’t that a waste of the precious little time you have to live on this earth only?
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Posted on October 15, 2009, in Apologetics and tagged atheism. Bookmark the permalink. 11 Comments.
Josiah Concept Ministries 
Hello again.
Where is your evidence that there exists a realm beyond the universe? We KNOW the universe exists; nobody argues against that (except for your hardcore Descartes fans, but who cares about them, right?) If there’s no evidence for the existence of Heaven, much less any other realm outside of our universe, then you’re the one imposing your Biblical assumptions on the universe, not the other way around.
Atheists think up questions like these because religion often times directly interferes with what precious time we have left on this planet. The last time I wore my flying spaghetti monster shirt to campus I actually got told I was going to hell. You know, that’s a wee bit on the annoying side, and if one’s belief that I’m going to hell simply for a shirt I wear is grounded in a faith that has no evidence, conflicts with reality, and has a long history of bigotry and hate then speaking out and questioning such faith is, in my opinion, necessary.
I like how you assert my religion has no evidence and conflicts with reality. Care to back that up with actual examples?
And I like how you completely disregard my question. I’ll repeat it incase you missed it: “Where is your evidence that there exists a realm beyond the universe?” Until you can answer that I think that’s a perfect example of how your religion doesn’t mesh with reality.
What sort of evidence are you looking for? Because it seems to me that a realm beyond the universe wouldn’t leave much evidence in this universe of the sort you want.
So your evidence for the existence of something outside our universe is that it’s impossible to prove. Perhaps your idea of evidence needs some revision.
When you find a way to prove that randomness without a mind guiding it can create living isms then I’m sure Cory will find a way to prove the existence of a realm beyond this universe.
Did you read my response to you on my blog? Do a little bit of reading on evolution, then we’ll talk.
2007 was a fairy tale year for me. It was a time when the supernatural became very…natural. I spent the entire year sequestered in isolation living a fasted lifestyle, no tv, no wife or girlfriend, very little human interaction, just me and Him in my little apartment every day, all year long. It was the most amazing experience of my life. During this “season” the Lord began to reveal to me what I call the “nature of things”. This included how things were in the beginning before the fall, the difference between the flesh and spiritual realms, heaven, etc and many wonderful things too beautiful to go into here (call on me and I will show you great and might things which you do not know Jer 33:3) It was heavenly, that’s the only way to describe it. Now, lest you think I did this because I am so “spiritual”, no, actually I spent the entire year like this because I was so very desperate, a pitiful mess of a man and God had mercy, had pity on me…thankfully, He is a faithful Father indeed. Here’s a little of what was revealed to me concerning the topic at hand during that wonderful “season”.
Heaven is not so much a “place” but another dimension altogether, another realm and reality. Therefore it is not necessary to “go” anywhere when one is separated from the veil of our flesh then the realm of spirit is the natural order. It’s not as if one is transported to some far away “place” upon physical death, he is merely in his (original and essential) state which is spiritual in nature.
When JC said that he was not “of this world” (and neither are we once having been born of spirit, born of God Jn 1.13) he meant that this lower flesh/natural realm of the senses subject to death & deacy is not his/our true, original homeland or “country”, that he was not from here, hence we are as sojourner’s in a foreign land, strangers and aliens as scriptures says, truly in this world but not “of” it.
I saw that before the fall man dwelt in a paradaisical, pristine, edenic state of perfection in the spirit with the Father & Son having been made in His very image and likeness yet abdicated his high spiritual position in glory in the fall. That man was not originally flesh dominant as we see today but a spiritual being having taken on “skin of woe” as the Hebrew scholars interpret it meaning subject to pain, decay, etc only after the fall (Gen 3.21). That much of Genesis as we are taught in “Churchianity” is unfortunately incorrect. Now consider Christ after the resurrection appearing as a man but walking thru matter, ie walls, etc. This is how/who we were and will be again, a “heavenly” meaning spiritual man.
This high spiritual state is difficult for mankind to conceive today because this current physical, lowered state is his only reference point and so has become his standard, he knows no other as a consequence of the fall and thinks it his homeland. So we see all kinds of foolishness, deceptions coming out of this darkened “earthly”, adamic consciousness, ie, now man(kind) knowing not his true (spiritual) lineage, parentage considers himself a beast, was once an ape, that his origins derive from the beastly, etc. This is utter foolishness but makes perfect “sense” to the unrenewed, unenlightened man. Out of this darkened mind (heart) proceed all manner of evil as JC said, the image of God in man (glory) has been perverted, distorted, lost and he no longer exemplifies his Father. It’s His image in us that’s been defaced, that why Paul said in Col 1.27-28 “Christ in you, its Him we preach”. Meaning this is our true, original state, ie Christlikeness and when you’ve seen Him you’ve seen the Father and your true likeness, self in glory.
We know that we are changed from “glory to glory” meaning from one degree of light and truth to another, higher degree of light and truth as we progressively walk in the spirit, as we journey with Him and mature in Christ, are conformed to His image (Gal 4.19). As sons of Abraham, (ie faith like the Fathers of the faith mentioned in the book of Hebrews) we too now seek a “heavenly” meaning spiritual country. Why? Because that heavenly state is our (true) country, homeland and we count ourselves as strangers and aliens here, can never quite feel at home down here (since we are not).
There is so much more but I have gone on long enough. We must begin to identify with our (true) spiritual nature as sons (meaning spiritual offspring) of God. What really transpired at the cross, do you (really) know? We were forgiven you say? Redeemed? Ah yes but much, much more than that. JC said “I have many more things to say to you but you are not ready (able) to hear them”. Let us be as those who prepare our hearts to hear the “more”, amen.
On your answer to question 2, why would heaven be outisde this universe unless the God and Father of Jesus XC was a different God than the Creator of this world? Like in Marcionism where he is affirmed to be an ‘Alien’ God as being alien to this universe? If the God and Father of Jesus XC is the same old Creator of this universe, his heaven should be in the universe?
(XC is the Greek nomina sacra or abbrevion for the holy name that ambiguously represents either the terms Christos or Chrestos)
This was supposed to be a statement. “If the God and Father of Jesus XC is the same old Creator of this universe, his heaven should be in the universe.” When ‘St.’ Ephrem attempts to refute Marcionism, he asks things like “How is the Stranger’s heaven supported unless it rests on the heavens of the Maker. Do not say that he hangs his heaven from above, for that is silly. We all know his heaven must rest on what is below.” Everyone just kinda thinks that Marcionism was disproven way back when and we shouldn’t even review the arguments today, but look at how silly the arguments were the Catholics used against it!
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