Category Archives: God

What Type of Evidence is Required to Believe Extraordinary Claims?

How many of us have said,  “I’ve been meaning to do [something], but [this] got in the way.”  I’ve been guilty of that many times, especially around the house.  I keep “meaning to,” but something else happens.

Wives are pretty forgiving here–or at least mine is.  Provided that [this] is reasonable, and not, “I just had to beat my high score at Yahtzee, and after 10 hours of rolling those dice, I finally did it!”

Supervisors at work are much less forgiving, even if [this] is extremely reasonable.  “I meant to get that paperwork faxed over, but four people called off for lunch rush and of the people that showed up, no one knew how to run the drive-thru register except for me!”  Those who have worked in fast food know that what I just said is a very legitimate reason for missing office work, but they also know that no district manager would actually accept that excuse.

In the world of blogging, “I’ve been meaning to write a post on [something], but [this] got in the way” has far less severe consequences than it does in the corporate world.  Usually, another blogger ends up writing the post, generally making the exact points that you would have raised.  Then comes the inevitable internal groan, “Why didn’t I just write the post sooner?”

Today, as I read over the usual blogs, I discover that the post I’ve been meaning to write on the so-stupid-it-burns talking point that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” has already been written by Dr. Randal Rauser.  Although I’ve disagreed with Dr. Rauser in the past, in this particular post he is 110% spot on.  This paragraph sums up my own points to people about this claim:

The problem starts with this: who decides what is “extraordinary”? Without an absolute, objective standard this principle collapses into “Anything that appears really implausible to me requires extraordinary evidence” and that in turn collapses into “No evidence will be good enough to convince me of something I find really implausible”. In other words, this is a recipe for an irrational dismissal of any evidence counter to what one already accepts.

Literally, all the “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” talking point ever does is allow the atheist to dismiss with a simple hand wave anything that he doesn’t want to believe–the existence of God, the Resurrection, any miracle in the Bible, or whatever else they don’t want in their worldview.  All they need to do is class whatever their opponent says as “extraordinary,” and whatever evidence or argument offered in support as “not extraordinary.”  BAM!  Case dismissed faster than a pothead’s lawsuit on Judge Judy.

All that is required to believe any claim, extraordinary or not, is sufficient evidence.  Period.

Questions Theists Can’t Answer: God and Rest

Let’s take a look at a question theists allegedly can’t answer from an old thread on Reddit.  Warning: it’s lame.
“On the seventh day, he rested.”

So many thing wrong with that one statement, who would a god need to rest?

I don’t need to drink Pepsi, but I do.  I don’t need to blog, but I do.  I don’t need to pain miniatures, but I do.  I don’t need to watch The People’s Court everyday, but I do.  Shall I go on?

No where in the Bible does it say God needs to rest.  It says that he does rest.  Big difference.

A day is a measure of time on Earth, who did not exist.

It does now.  What’s your point?

If he worked for 5 days on one planet, thats pretty damn slow, at that the rest of the universe would take a lot longer that 14 billion years.

Actually, Genesis 1:1 says that God created the heavens and the earth.  Genesis 1:2 says that the earth is there now, formless and void.  So everything–the universe, the earth, etc–existed before Genesis 1:2 continues the narrative.  Verses 3-31 show God ordering what already exists.

We can prove that the solar system took billions of years to form and used only 2 things, gravity and time.

Okay.  So no matter or energy involved there?  Just gravity?  That’s an amazingly dense statement.

With that in mind, why would a god, any god make things by just waiting around for gravity to do what it does naturally? And theists will just say, “oh well god made gravity and put the wheels in motion”, ok well thats not how it says he does shit in the bible, so one of them must be wrong.

The Bible describes God as active in nature and using nature to achieve his ends.  That’s the work of the Holy Spirit, which represents the active hand of God moving in the world around us.  The book of Colossians describes it best:

He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (1:15-20, emphasis added)

Preeminence and sovereignty don’t always imply an active hand in every single detail that transpires, but it does imply that God worked everything to create what he desired.  In him, it all hold together.  It’s possible that both the people who say God set it in motion and the Bible which describes God as active are both correct.

And thats essentially the first thing in the bible, how can they assume anything else to be true after that?

Begging the question.

I told you this was lame.

Convincing Skeptics to Believe

John W. Loftus discussed what it would take to convince him to believe. The discussion was prompted when Jayman, a Christian, asked  Loftus if he witnessed a bona fide miracle, would he then believe in God? Let’s look at the hubris displayed in the answer:

I have said that it would take a personal miracle for me to believe. I didn’t say what kind of miracle nor did I comment on the other things that would have to accompany that miracle. Let me do so now. . . .

Let’s say the miracle was an anonymous one, like the resurrection of my cousin Steve Strawser, who died at 58 alone in the woods of a massive heart attack, or the skeptic Ken Pulliam who died in October. I would believe in a supernatural reality, yes, but an anonymous one. I don’t think I could conclude anything different. But it would be an anonymous god who did it. I could not conclude much about this god other than that he could raise the dead. (emphasis added)

Once telling us that a miracle would convince him, he qualifies that by saying that a miracle is only evidence of a supernatural entity, but the identity of said entity is still open for conjecture. Then he backtracks:

So I would need more than a miracle, even though that scenario is already far fetched to begin with. (emphasis added)

After the miracle, Loftus wants God to take credit for it, by making a personal appearance (of course). Loftus further considers that proposition:

But let’s say that along with such a miracle I am told by this deity to believe exactly the way Jayman does about Christianity. That presumes even more than that a miracle occurred, since there are so many brands of Christianity around, some accusing the others of heresy. Would I believe then?

Assuming that the miracle came, the worker of the miracle has shown himself and taken credit, then he tells Loftus to believe exactly as a specific Christian believes. Meaning God’s power has been demonstrated, and then asserts his authority. Does Loftus submit?

So, if I experienced a personal miracle I would require more than just that to believe in Jayman’s god. I have so many objections to the Bible and the biblical god I would have to reconcile what I know with what this deity told me to believe. I cannot even understand why any god would require me to believe in the first place! At that point I would be forced to chose between Jayman’s god and a trickster conception of god, and the trickster god would have to be my choice given what I know. (emphasis added)

Wow. Don’t miss Loftus’s  this:

  1. An incontrovertible miracle occurs.
  2. God himself appears to Loftus and takes credit.
  3. God tells Loftus which Christian denomination is correct in all doctrinal points.
  4. However, Loftus doesn’t think that any branch of Christianity is correct.
  5. Loftus assumes that the deity who appeared and worked the miracle is now tricking him.

In conclusion:

If I was convinced Christianity is true and Jesus arose from the grave, and if I must believe in such a barbaric God, I would believe, yes, but I could still not worship such a barbaric God. I would fear such a Supreme Being, since he has such great power, but I’d still view him as a thug, a despicable tyrant, a devil in disguise; unless Christianity was revised. (source, emphasis added)

This is quite educational. My conclusion: John W. Loftus is an arrogant and unrelenting narcissist who has put himself in place of God. In his own words, Loftus has said, “Even if God himself proved his existence beyond a reasonable doubt and told me that Christianity is true, I’ll believe it but I’m still not going to worship God.”

Literally, John Loftus has just told us that he knows better than God. Only on the Internet can you witness egos this big first hand.  And, this proves that no one is in hell kicking, screaming, and crying to be let out (as I’ve frequently argued).  Loftus would rather be there then to bow down and worship God.

I don’t think I can add anything further. This speaks for itself.

Do I Only Have to Reject One More God to be an Atheist?

There is one particular atheist argument that I hear quite regularly that inspires within me a desire to smack the smug person who says it right in the back of the head, as though he were Tony DiNozzo and I were Leroy Jethro Gibbs.

The argument runs a bit like this:

You are an atheist to thousands of gods.  I’m only an atheist to one more god than you are.

The speaker is acting as if I only have to take one small step and I’ll be free of this Vulcan mind-meld of Christianity and I can live my life like a “normal” person.  But atheism isn’t just lacking belief in one less god than the Christian.  Atheism is lacking a belief in any sort of deity.  In other words, atheism is rejecting the Divine.  Let’s explore that for a moment, because it is far deeper than rejecting “just another god.” Read the rest of this entry

I So Meant to Post this on Sunday

This song, an old hymn, really spoke to me this past Sunday.  I meant to post it then, but I forgot.  Ooops.  So, here it is now:

Read the history behind this song carefully.  Horatio Spafford suffered immense loss, first with the Great Chicago Fire and then the shipwreck of all four of his daughters.  Despite this, he didn’t waver in his faith (as far as I know).  He certainly would have been justified had he done so.  He and his wife then became missionaries to Jerusalem.  It would have been at his lowest point, passing the watery graves of his daughters, that he wrote “It is Well with my Soul.”

Contrast that with this:

I received a letter a month or so later telling me that they could not recommend me for ordination at this time. They did however, outline a process I should work through in order to clear up the issues in my life and with my theology. They provided a long list of books I should read and asked that I meet with Doughboy on a monthly basis for further counseling.
So let me vent for a moment.

I’m living in a town 10 miles from the church I once pastored and they want me to attend the sister church of that congregation because my choice to attend a Baptist church shows that I have unresolved theological questions. I drink wine on rare occasions and smoke a good cigar on a quarterly basis so I am obviously morally bankrupt. I can go out and spend $19.95 online to get ordained but these wind bags have decided I don’t meet their criteria.

Have I told you that I hate Christians. . . ?

I don’t really think it would have mattered what I said to them because what small minds these folks possessed were already made up before I arrived.

This is one of the episodes that cemented my position as highly critical and pessimistic about the Church. (source)

So, petty in-fighting and stupid inter-denominational bickering causes this guy, going by Slow Break, to lose his faith and resign his pastorate (elsewhere in the article, he’s clear about not being a Christian anymore). On the other hand, Horatio Spafford loses all his material goods followed closely by 2/3 of his family, but remains firm.

Obviously, Spafford had it rougher.

Though, in the interest of full disclosure, Slow Break is having a difficult time making a living since resigning his pastorate.  He’s currently working in a crime-ridden part of town as a car salesman but can’t make any sales and so lacks two pennies to rub together.  He admits this is a low point for him.

Some may fail to see the difference between Spafford and Slow Break, but there is a huge difference. The fix Slow Break finds himself in is his choice. He voluntarily resigned, and so far as I gather from the article, could have taken another church but refused. Spafford’s circumstances were a matter of events beyond his control, seeming to conspire against him.

What happened to the ex-pastor was his own doing.  He chose to leave his post.  He chose not to accept an alternative one.  Spafford did not set the Chicago Fire. He did not pilot the opposing vessel which sank his daughters’ transport.  God, however, was always in control of those things.  Knowing this, Spafford muscled on and did not blame God for his troubles.  He remained faithful to God, and God mightily used him in missionary work.

I wonder if Slow Break blames God for all his trouble?

Why Aren’t Christians Better People?

C. Michael Patton began a series on questions he hopes no one will ask, which relates to my own series on DaGoodS’s questions that Christians hope no one will ask.  I examined a few of his questions in brief already, and I had intended to continue examining them as he posted more.  In the interest of time, I wanted to just write a small snippet on each and combine several in a single post.

That didn’t happen with the question of why Christians aren’t better people. Read the rest of this entry

When I’m Wrong, I’m Wrong

It appears as though I made a sweeping generalization in my last post that was unwarranted.  I claimed that atheists lauded this idiot, who made a homeless person jump through hoops for his own amusement before he would give the needy man $20.

I found the video via ex-Christian.net.  The comments section on ex-C.net contained things like this:

  • Actually the film maker didn’t seem arrogant or particularly condescending to me. It did make the man uncomfortable (although not the woman to my eyes), but its never comfortable when our deepest held values and beliefs are up for public scrutiny by someone who disbelieves them. Maybe it will give him the impetus to do some self-examination. Certainly if someone had just given them $20 without the discussion, these parents would have seen it as “a gift from the Lard!” & “God’s provisioning!”
  • Hey, if it’s OK to casually ask for money on the side of the road (and guilt people into donating using “God”), then what’s wrong with casually asking someone to cross out a word in exchange for money?
  • The christbots still found and jumped through a loophole to get the money.  I really wish the film maker had had ten thousand dollars in cash to really “test” their faith.
  • Does anyone really believe that if he had a million bucks, as opposed to 20, that they wouldn’t have accepted? Please.
  • Exactly! And if by some slim-to-none chance they wouldn’t have taken the million bucks, that alone would prove the extent of their brainwashing… or sheer stupidity.
  • Sad, there they are living in an RV homeless and yet somehow think god is for them? So sad. Sadder even I used to be that stupid. Then I did what the guy in the video said, took accountability for my life.  TADA!!!!! It worked! Well what do you know? Read the rest of this entry

The Moral Bankruptcy of Atheism

Let’s try this thought experiment:

On the side of the road is a man, his wife, and a child.  They are holding up a sign that reads, “We lost our home.  Help would be appreciated.”

Moved by their plight, I’m compelled to help them.  I pull my car over to an out-of-the way place.  I exit the vehicle and approach the family.

“Hi,” I call to them.

“Hello,” the man says.  His wife and daughter remain silent, though his wife offers me a tenative smile.

“I feel for your plight, sir,” I say.  “I’m going to give you $20.”

“Thank you,” the man says.  His wife smiles more broadly this time, and she extends a hand to thank me.

“But first,” I say, dangling a twenty dollar bill from my fingertips, “I want you to do a little something.”

The woman drops her hand to her side.  The man looks at me, while the woman raises a quizzical eyebrow.

Then I propose my deal.  “I have a hula hoop, clown shoes, and a colored wig in my trunk.  I want you to strip all of your clothes off–totally naked–and wear nothing but the wig and clown shoes.  Then, I want you to spin the hula hoop as many times as you can while chanting, ‘I can’t provide for the basic needs of my family, so I’m begging people for money instead of looking for a job!'”

Awkward silence.  I dangle the twenty dollar bill even closer to the man’s face.  “I don’t think so,” the man growls.

“I’ll make it $50 if you do this at the busiest mall in town,” I say.

The man just shakes his head vigorously.  His wife won’t look at me anymore.

In this example, I think that we can confidently conclude that I’m an asshole who should be shot.  Making the homeless jump through hoops for my own amusement is reprehensible behavior. People who engage in it deserve the label “asshole.”

Well, what have we here:

Though no one would praise my actions in the itallicized example, folks on ex-Christian.net are applauding the actions of the maker of that video.  Had the asshole done what I did above in the thought experiment, they (hopefully) would have universally condemned him.  Yet, when he asks the homeless person to deny God for money, that somehow is awesome.

To recap:

  • Make a homeless person jump through sadistic hoops for money = immoral.
  • Make a homeless person deny his Creator for money = strong commentary on religion.

Conclusion: Atheists have little moral compass, especially when it comes to making religion look bad.  Anything goes.  This is so disgusting that I can’t even come up with words for it.

Remember, the spirit is more important than the flesh.  Denying God has spiritual consequences greater than the physical consequences of turning down $20 from a complete asshole:

If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. (Phil 3:4-11)

And:

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Mt 10:29, 31-33)

Returning to the God is Imaginary Rewrite

It’s been a while, but I’m now returning to the rewrite of my refutation of God is Imaginary. After reading some of my original disproofs, I’m happy to be doing the rewrite because some of my original apologetics were terrible. I’ve grown as an apologist, I’m proud to say.

Like anything, it’s a learning curve.

I have no set schedule for completing the proofs. I hope to also tackle Why Won’t God Heal Amputees in the near future as well.

What I’ve done so far:

And, co-author Dr. Joshua Rasmussen has put up his first article:

I’m probably going to edit that article a bit this week, since Dr. Rasmussen makes some points that I would like to expand on.

So Far, I Remain Unimpressed

There are two basic classifications of atheist. The negative atheist simply remains unconvinced that God exists. The atheist doesn’t affirm the existence of any deity, but never explicitly denies the possibility one may exist somewhere.

Most folks I argue with here fall into the category of negative (sometimes called “weak”) atheist. It is often asserted that this is the default position in life and one should remain at this point until evidence is presented to the contrary. Of course, every weak atheist I encounter is absolutely unimpressed by any evidence affirming the existence of God. Such evidence is either believed to be faulty or denied outright as having any significance to judging the existence of God.

More interesting is positive (or “strong”) atheism, which is the explicit proposition that God doesn’t exist. As weak atheists remind us constantly, the burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. Therefore, when the theist encounters a strong atheist, the burden of proof shifts and it is up to the strong atheist to prove that God doesn’t exist.

Not surprisingly, there are few strong atheists. It’s an extremely difficult position to defend, since the strong atheist has given himself a nearly impossible burden of proof. However, I found Geoffrey Berg at my local library when browsing for another title; Berg attempts to defend strong atheism by formulating new and improved proofs that God is incompatible with logic. He published a book called The Six Ways of Atheism: New Logical Disproofs of the Existence of God. I thought it would be interesting, so I picked it up. Read the rest of this entry

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