Rey and Inconsistency
I’ve generally found that anyone arguing against the doctrines of grace is forced to be very inconsistent. This would be because they are arguing against biblical truth, so if they remain consistent they would be forced to accept Calvinism.
Rey, an anti-Calvinist commenter on this blog, has just demonstrated inconsistency in his latest post. Rey says that God will read Psalm 119:108 to each Calvinist before casting them into the lake of fire.
That would mean that Rey accepts Psalm 119:108 as inerrant biblical truth. But, elsewhere, Rey has said this about the Psalms:
David’s prayers are his personal opinion except when they are Messianic prophecies. They are only inspired in the sense of being accurate historical accounts of what he prayed. (source, emphasis added)
Guess what, Rey? Psalm 119:108 is not a messianic prophecy, so it cannot be used (according to you) in that way. It is just David’s personal opinion, only an accurate rendering of what he prayed at the time.
Bottom line: You can’t have it both ways. Either the psalms are inspired Scripture, or they are not. Which is it?
Posted on May 6, 2009, in Apologetics. Bookmark the permalink. 17 Comments.
Apparently you missed that this (Psalm 119) is not a Psalm of David, at least there is no heading advertising it as such, and therefore it is not tainted by having been written by a murderer, adultery, and polygammist so far as we know. But there is more:
The only passage of Scripture that describes Scripture as inspired is 2nd Timothy 3:16-17, so lets take a look at what it says the PURPOSE of inspiration is exactly. Paul says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
First, Paul says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable” not “and is inerrant.” That is the first point, that Paul himself recommends Scripture not on the basis that it can never be wrong, but on the basis that it is profitable. Secondly, for what is it profitable? To make the man of God perfectly equipped for every good work. That in Scripture which does not conduce to good works but is a hindrance to them, that which does not tend to make men righteous but unrighteous, that which makes men blame their sins on God rather than take responsibility and repent, is wrong and is only profitable towards the end goal of making the man of God perfectly equipped for every good work in the negative sense of “don’t follow this example!” So, when David blames God for his sin, the only profit to be derived from such as Scripture (for all Scripture is profitable) toward the goal of being equipped for good works, is to be on guard against such foolish sentiments knowing that men of the past who were considered by men to be pious made such grievous errors and destroyed their lives and the lives of those around them (look at David’s family).
Of what profit can David’s lie in Psalm 51:4 be “Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest”??? Every scoundrel would merely repeat these words and say their sin is OK because it increases God’s judgment against them and therefore their evil was gone for good. Rightly does Paul chide the Jews at Rome for using this Scripture in that way, when he says “For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.” (Romans 3:7-8)
In Short, because Calvinism reads 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 totally wrong, as though it said “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is inerrant” rather than what it actually says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable…That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works”–because of this, Calvinism has made it its especial goal to mine every wrong statement that exists in the Scriptures and set them up as an antichristian phalanx!!! Your view of Scripture is not the same as Paul’s. Had Paul mean to says that Scripture is infallible rather than profitable, he would have so said. But Scripture is only profitable and not infallible, for indeed some of the time the only profit that can be derived from a passage is its refuted by another passage! “But this view will create CHAOS in interpreting Scripture?” No, it will not, for the overriding rule to the interpretation is laid down by Paul as the ultimate purpose of Scripture itself, “That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” Blaming man’s sins on God does not equip anyone to good works, but declaring plainly that man is able to repent on his own (as in Ezekiel 18) does equip men to good works! This is the rule. Calvinism makes men first into atheists out of disgust against its view of God, and then turns them from atheists to marginal God-hating relionists whose sole purpose is to deny that men can amend and to convince everyone that they are not able to do good and might as well stay sinners because they can’t possibly do any better. But the profit of Scripture, Paul says, is the opposite, to equip men to good works. Calvinism even while taking the Scripture to be infallible, can never be consistent, because its goal is not the goal of Scripture! Its goal is not to equip to good works but to deny that men can do good works! But when one accepts the same view of inspiration as Paul, then and only then can they and their interpretation be in line with the goal of Scripture, i.e. equipping men to good works.
you can’t reason with a God-hater. Rey hates God. He hates God’s Word and he hates the lineage Christ came through.
Even he must realize it’s insane to appeal to Scripture as being “useful” when, in fact, the very passage in question may be a untrue…that’s certainly the conundrum when “christians” deny inerrancy.
If I hated God, I would be a Calvinist: What better way to show your hatred of God that to declare him the first cause of evil! But if you judge rightly that a polygamist, adultering murderer loves God more than I who have never murdered anyone nor stolen anyone’s wife, then what a strange knot your mind must be twisted into.
Perhaps you guys should consider ending this carnal, fruitless squabbling and go find and befriend the nearest “Jesus in disguise”, you know those poor, outcast, hungry, homeless, orphaned, imprisoned, and fatherless ones? They won’t care about your “doctrine”, only your love.
Jesus said (speaking of acts of extreme love & mercy to the needy) when you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have (really) done it unto…me.
Paul said…if I can do all these things (prophecy, etc) but have not love, I am nothing, as a sounding gong (just talk).
Love, that’s really what it’s all about guys.
But Calvinism teaches that God wants them to starve–He even pre-scripted it, they say.
I am not a Calvinist…only a Christ’ist, ha as we all truly are.
Yes, Cory doesn’t have it all right, I don’t have it all right, even Rey doesn’t have it all right but..thank God, Love covers a multitude of sins!!
So, may I suggest that we stop majoring on the minors and visa versa while keeping the main thing the main thing? Ps…love is the main thing.
I can’t know this about you, so don’t think I’m saying this is a description of you…
In my experience, people that talk the most about love do the least of it. They have a wrong understanding of love and a wrong understanding of unity.
Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
This is something Rey denies…
1 John 2:5
but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected
Rey cannot have the love of God perfected as he rejects God’s Word.
Anyone that pulls our attention away from God’s Word is someone I consider an opponent…he cannot be unified with me nor can he be sanctified in the way Christ prayed.
Blessings, many blessings and much light for the journey dear sir.
How could you ever consider Rey an “opponent” as you say when Jesus said that we are even to love our enemies? And yet Rey names the name of Christ, is a believer? Sharing the same (spiritual) Father??
Religion is so divisive, its destroying us and its not what Christ came to bring us.
May we shed religion to find God.
Nobody has ever been sanctified nor ever will be sanctified by believing that God forces you to sin by an internal compulsion. What you are calling the word of God is certainly not the word of God that Jesus was referring to when he said “Thy word is truth.” Man will live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, not David and not Paul.
Rey is an enemy…and saying as much is in conformity with Scripture:
Phil 3:18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ
Make sure you understand how to love your enemies but also how to name them…notice how Paul refers to Jews that rejected Christ:
Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers
There is no contradiction between naming our enemies and also loving them.
I’d also like to point out…I’m with Cory on this stuff…he’s not part of my church nor my denom…the shiftiest people I know are the ones who will not identify themselves with creeds. They tend to be the most contentious since they think unity can only be achieved by throwing everything out except what they want…I’ll have no part of that unity…that’s tyranny of the worst sort.
This is a major. If you can’t even acknowledge that God does not compel people to sin internally then you are not a Christian, nor can you ever be righteous in any capacity. Its not like an argument over whether a church should have a steeple or not, John.
No Rey, compared to love, it’s not major. You have missed the proverbial forest for the tree’s my friend. You are caught up in a doctrinal pissing contest while the world is going to hell in a hand basket. It’s not about us, it’s all about Him and He is love (1 Jn 4:16).
If you are asking me to side with you over Cory, that is not my purpose here, but rather to WAKE YOU UP out of your sleepy slumber so you can walk in the (full) light of His love and burn brightly in a very dark and dying world.
Father doesn’t cause us to sin any more than He can make you choose to love, like everything else, it’s a choice Rey. When you begin to come out of external behavior hang ups (religion) and allow Father to form and reveal the true nature of His Son within you (which is love) aside from all the religious crap then you will finally be on the (L)ight path my friend.
Wake up Rey, love is what it’s all about, not religious, rule keeping pooh.
LOVE like Him,
How can you love anyone, John, if you believe that nobody is worth anything more than dung? Is this not the constant Calvinist drumbeat? Have you ever listened to Piper? We’re all worthless dung, capable of nothing good–we’re worse than dung! We’re swine-flu Aids infected carcinogenic dung. Humans are totally worthless in Calvinism. We’re so worthless that Jesus couldn’t even die for all of us, but only for a select few who won a lottery. Does this teach love for your fellow man? Well, only if you can obey the command “love your neighbor as yourself” while loathing and hating yourself as more worthless than dung! You are WRONG on this issue John. Feeding the poor and housing the homeless, clothing the naked, is wonderful! But, you can’t stick your head in the sand and say “I will do these things only and never stand up to Calvinism.” If all the so-called Christians who are demented into fomented hatred of mankind could be cured of this psychosis called Calvinism, imagine what an army of love we could muster to solve all these ills!!!!! But instead they foment in hatred of mankind dreaming up ways to build up oppressive theocratic states that stone men to death for the “blasphemy” of asserting that an all-loving and all-wise God gave mankind freedom of the will so they could freely choose to love and adore him and do righteousness. Love compels the condemnation of Calvinism as the greatest opponent of love every imagined by the fiends of hell.
I dont believe that we “are as dung” as you say. Christ didnt die for dung. I am not a Calvinist in case you are confused…there is no such thing as all these various religious labels, Calvinist, Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, you name it, either we are IN Christ or we are not, its that simple. There are no “sections”, no divisions in the heavenly (spiritual) realm.
That He might be…all in all.
So God thinks enough of David to bring His earthly lineage through him for Christ to be the very root and offspring of David while calling Paul out of the religious “system” and personally revealing Himself to him on the road to Damascus and would have him write, by his own hand more than half the New Testament but neither men are quite “good enough” for you, am I understanding you correctly?
Or are you still not understaning friend, that none, not one (including you and I) are righteous, none that means no man (no flesh) is capable of keeping the (whole) law and pleasing God save Christ (that Word that you mention who was both with God and was God) whom we receive so that we too might be made…the righteousness of God IN Christ Jesus and so be saved? Shall we compete with the blood of Christ?
May it never be.
Thanks for sharing. There is no such true thing as a creed, only a King and we are to be of and in Him alone. As far as unity is concerned, the only true unity is in the spirit, no creed or system of beliefs (religion) can accomplish true unity to which this blog and many discussions are proof of. My friend, the only reason you would want to know any “creed”, or denomination to which I may hold (and I hold to neither, to none) is so that you could begin to tear it down, because that’s what religion does, its a divider, the spirit is the only true unifier, that’s why we are told to learn to walk in the spirit where these many differences (beliefs) would fall away in the light of the One truth, Christ within.
The context in which you employ those verses is not appropriate here as Rey names the name of Christ, the references there are “enemies of the cross” and Jews, unbeleivers. Anyway, we are to love these too. You will always be able to find someone who believes differently than you, but the man that builds a bridge is always greater than he who would be a divider.
Lets build bridges together…please for the sake of Christ.