Typical Atheist Arguments

25 07 2010

In my much derided “No Heavyweights of Theology” post, a commenter named Karen Leonard posted the following comment:

It is very difficult to be a “heavyweight” in theology. There is so much mythology, misogyny, racism, sexism, cruel and unusual punishment, mixed messages, and down right nonsense within the bible, that the only people you can address that will sit through your oratory would be those whose minds are so fearful of death that they would believe ANYTHING that gave them hope to the escape the grave.

I was rather nasty in my reply:

Do work really hard at in-the-box-atheist-groupthink, or does it just come naturally?

This prompted commenter Enoch Sherman to stop following my blog, concluding that I don’t encourage rational conversation.

What, exactly, was rational about Ms. Leonard’s comment? NOTHING. Every point she made in that comment has been refuted, either by me or by another apologist. Those charges have stood refuted for years.

I already left these links in the comments, but since Ms. Leonard’s charges are so common, I thought I’d leave them here for your perusal.





Object Lesson in Why Some Hate Calvinism, part II

20 07 2010

Mike from the blog Finding Bliss has objected to Calvinism. He says, “I find it spiritually abusive,” calls it “reckless [sic] doctrine”

In my previous post, I showed that Mike isn’t objecting to Calvinism proper. In that vein, I will answer some of the objections he then comes up with in the latter section of his post, most of which can be defused by appealing to what Calvinism actually teaches, not what Mike thinks it teaches. First objection:

How many nights have people laid awake at night questioning whether or not God chose them first? Or if like me you first believed and then you fell then that could very well mean that I was never truly saved in the first place. Read the rest of this entry »





Object Lesson in Why Some Hate Calvinism, part I

19 07 2010

Mike of the Finding Bliss blog demonstrates why some people hate Calvinism. They hate a strawman caricature of it, and they don’t understand what the five points really teach. This is why I plan to make my musings on the topics of the five points of Calvinism available as an e-book.

Let’s look at what Mike got right, and what he got wrong. Mike writes, “I’ve attempted to present the 5 points as a Calvinist might present them which is not easy to do, I don’t agree with it and what’s worse I find it spiritually abusive.” It’s important to note that Mike is attempting to present these points accurately. He failed in a few places. Read the rest of this entry »





No Wonder This Guy’s an Atheist

3 07 2010

Yahoo! Answers user James Matthew posted this question in Religion/Spirituality: “Is this the most insane form of Christian delusion?” He expounds:

I asked my internet Christian friend how she is able to believe something that does not have any evidence for its existence.

She gave me the following answer.

“I leave all my logical reasoning and thinking capability and go to HIS throne like how a child goes its father. He is the potter and I am the clay in HIS hands. If so, how can I question HIS existence and authority to prove my logical reasoning??”

With Christian friends like this, no wonder he’s an atheist.

Recently, I posted something on the second greatest commandment. I’d like to note that the Greatest Commandment is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” (Mt 22:37; Mk 12:30; Lk 10:37). I think it is terrible when Christians actually tell people that they check their minds at the door wherever God is involved, as Matthew’s friend has done in this case. Read the rest of this entry »





God: Self-Serving or Narcissistic for Judgment?

9 06 2010

Usually, when I become aware of a new blog that has a post which I think requires an apologetic answer, I try to familiarize myself with it through the About page. Well, Fence Talk doesn’t have one of those. I had to go to another blog to find out what this one was about, and it was described as a “group blog with posts on parenting, Hollywood, social issues, nutrition, and more…” Sort of like The View, only on WordPress instead of TV.

The author of this post, who goes by Skinny Sushi, identifies herself as an agnostic. She and her husband were both raised Mormon, but for various reasons have walked away from the church. It seems that her primary reasons have to do with God’s judgment:

And any God who might be out there… wouldn’t he/she/it be rather pleased I’ve lived a good life and been kind to others?  There’s just something about the notion of an all powerful being who will punish me for not believing despite the quality of my life that seems a little… self serving?  Narcissistic?

In regard to the first point, Paul addressed this in the second chapter of Romans:

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:14-16)

So Sushi is right. People who do the Law without the Law are their own Law. No need for any divine intervention there. And, many people are good for goodness sake–without the Law. Read the rest of this entry »





The Preexistence of Jesus

30 05 2010

I just found Human Jesus Theology, a blog that seems ostensibly Christian, though the theology is a bit skewed. For example, in this post, author Jeffery W. Campbell takes a passage often used to establish the deity and preexistence of Jesus and argue that it does no such thing.

John 8:58 reads, “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.’” It is Campbell’s argument that this passage doesn’t establish the preexistence of Jesus because the name I AM from Exodus 3:14 isn’t the name of God.

Of course, to make this argument convincing, Campbell has to go to the Septuagint. It should be noted that the Septuagint is not the original language of the Old Testament; the Septuagint was written in Greek, but the Old Testament was written in Hebrew.

Even if this was a convincing argument, Campbell is ignoring other passages that unambiguously establish the preexistence of Jesus. Start with John 1:1-5:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

The “Word” of verse 1 is defined as Jesus in verses 14-18:

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Paul establishes the preexistence of Christ as well. In his letter to the Colossians 1:15-20, the apostle writes of Jesus:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Campbell can argue against one passage, but nothing in the Bible exists in a vacuum apart from everything else. There are numerous verses that establish the preexistence of Christ, which is why it is one of the core tenets of the Christian faith. John 8:53, while important, isn’t the cornerstone upon which the preexistence of Jesus is built.





The Biblical Definition of Excommunication

29 05 2010

In my previous post, I considered the Catholic definition of excommunication. I pronounced it unbiblical, but I never looked at a single Bible verse that discussed the concept of excommunication. And that, of course, was a mistake. I had actually meant to do that, but somehow forgot. Ooops.

I should mention that I don’t have a problem with the definition of excommunication as pronounced in the Code of Canon Law per se, it’s the method of execution that I take exception to. To refresh, the Catholic definition of excommunication is:

Exclusion from the communion, the principal and severest censure, is a medicinal, spiritual penalty that deprives the guilty Christian of all participation in the common blessings of ecclesiastical society.

That means no participation in sacraments, church life, or social intercourse with members in good standing. Excommunicants who die unrepentant are refused burial rites. Clerics who are so excommunicated are stripped of all their rights, responsibilities, and ecclesiastical authority. Again, I have no problem with the definition of excommunication per se.

The execution of excommunication, however, I do have a problem with. In certain cases, such as the case with Sr. McBride that I’ve discussed, the excommunication is automatic–with no investigation or trial. This isn’t biblical. Although there are a few passages that deal with excommunication in the New Testament, the primary one that also discusses the pattern of discipline leading to an excommunication is Matthew 18:15-17. It reads:

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

So, if someone sins against his brother, the brother is to confront him. If the sinner won’t listen, then the brother is to take two or three witnesses with him. If the sinner still won’t listen, the matter goes before the church. If that doesn’t work, then excommunication is the answer. Note that the sinner is to be given several chances, and there is no mention of incurring an automatic excommunication.

Jesus goes on in the next section to make it clear that excommunication is permanent only if the sinner is unrepentant. He tells Peter to forgive a brother “seventy times seven times,” which is a first century Hebrew euphemism used like we would use “as many times as it takes,” or “an infinite number of times,” or similar modern expressions.

Fortunately, the Code of Canon Law takes that into consideration by stating that excommunication is meant to be medicinal. In that spirit, I agree with Catholic excommunication. However, automatic excommunication is a bit severe. As this blog points out, automatic excommunication often targets the wrong person:

“It is a sad case but the real problem is that the twins conceived were two innocent persons, who had the right to live and could not be eliminated,” said Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re to a local daily. Re—who is the head of the Roman Catholic Church’s Congregation for Bishops—acknowledged that “life must always be protected” yet did not say anything over the girl’s life being in danger by her pregnancy.

Aside from excommunicating the girl’s mother, Sobrinho also had the gall to disparage the raped child:

The stepfather was not excommunicated because the church said that his action, although deplorable, was not as bad as ending the life of an unborn child.

“It is clear that he committed a very serious sin, but worse than this is the abortion,” Sobrinho said.

Perhaps the “Wondering Rose” said it the best:

What view of morality or justice sees shades of gray in the decision that was left to Sister Margaret McBride? How can religious doctrine deem the unborn child’s life worth more than that of a 27-year-old woman, and mother of four?  In what code of ethics is it right to leave four children motherless, when her life could be saved by forfeiting the life of an 11-week old fetus? Who is served by excommunicating Sister McBride, a nun who has given decades of her life to her order, the Sisters of Mercy, in service to the church, to the communion of believers and to society?  How do we view her banishment in comparison to the pedophile priests, none of whom have been excommunicated but who were allowed to continue their heinous ways under the protection of the Bishops? (emphasis in original)





This is just . . . WOW! (part II)

23 05 2010

In a previous post, I criticized Mark of Proud Atheists for this post. Mark listed 14 things that he simply does not adhere to, given his naturalistic worldview. In all cases, I’ve been finding that Mark misunderstands or mischaracterizes Christianity. Today, we continue exposing his errors on points eight through 14, and offer some concluding thoughts. Read the rest of this entry »





This is Just . . . WOW! (part I)

22 05 2010

Mark from Proud Atheists does it again! He manages to prove his general and willful ignorance of religion even while attempting to mock it. His latest diatribe is a thoughtful post titled “Dear Christians, ‘I Simply Do Not . . . .‘” It’s a fascinating line of crap from start to finish. Let’s see what we can make of it: Read the rest of this entry »





The Case Against “The Case for Christ”

9 05 2010

John W. Loftus, who I’ve been spending more time on than I ought to, has recommended a book by Robert Price called The Case Against the Case for Christ.

Obviously, The Case Against the Case for Christ is a chapter-by-chapter refutation of Lee Strobel’s popular The Case for Christ. Strobel’s book was one of my inspirations to enter apologetics ministry, so I’m very interested in Price’s rebuttal. Problem: the book is a little pricey (no pun intended). At $25 via Price’s website, I really can’t afford it. Maybe it will come down, or I’ll be able to find it in the library. (Top Secret is the only book by Price in my local library, so that doesn’t look promising.) Or, maybe my writing career will finally take off and I’ll be able to afford more luxuries. (Yes, right now a book is a luxury. I have a sad life right now.)

I did, however, want to touch on something that Loftus said in his recommendation of Price’s new book, because I’ve heard this from atheists before:

[W]hile Strobel acts like he’s setting out to test the “claims of Christ,” he does no such thing. Strobel is being disingenuous, Price tells us, because “his true intention becomes clear by the choice of people he interviewed: every one of them a conservative apologist!” So Strobel is not uncovering facts as a reporter would do. No, he’s “soliciting opinions he already wants to promote. The irony is that, if anyone in Jesus’ day had actually done what Strobel claims to be doing, seeking out informed authorities to interview, there would be no need for such exercises in apologetical futility.” (p. 12)

The title of the book is The Case for Christ, not The Case for and Against Christ with Balanced Commentary on All Sides of the Issue. The second is lame and wouldn’t have sold millions of copies.

I’ll say this plainly. When you’re arguing for something, you are not obligated to explore what the other side says unless you are doing so to anticipate objections–which you then reject.

If John Loftus was accused of murdering someone, how would he want his case presented by his defense attorney? Would he want:

  • Character witnesses that only say what a gnarly dude he is
  • Complete refutation of the prosecution’s forensic evidence
  • A plausible scenario that explains the prosecution’s case while leaving him completely innocent

Or, do you suppose that Loftus would want:

  • Several character witnesses that say he’s awesome, and a couple of girls he dated once in high school then never called back
  • Lukewarm treatment of the prosecution’s forensic evidence that admits Loftus could have done it based on this evidence
  • A plausible scenario that explains the prosecution’s case while leaving him completely innocent, with the disclaimer that the prosecution’s case is equally credible and perhaps even more plausible

I’m wild guessing here, but I think Loftus would want his laywer to present the first case. Yet he expects Lee Strobel to present the second case. Why?

I’ll say this again: when presenting an argument in favor of something, you are under no obligation to give treatment to alternatives–unless you are anticipating and then rejecting major objections to the case you are attempting to build. That is what Strobel did in The Case for Christ. He is not trying to entertain alternative theories, though as I remember he did try to anticipate objections to his work.