Objecting to Objective Morality
It seems as though my writing has come to the attention of Jeff Haws, webmaster of the Atheocracy. Jeff has used a quote from this article to highlight the mindset of Christians in regard to origins. While I’m flattered that my writing would be used at all, I’m certainly not flattered that Jeff has represented the “typical Christian fundamentalist” mindset and has failed to interact with either the writing itself or my specific view of atheists.
Jeff says:
But this is how they [Christians] think of atheists, as amoral, selfish people because they either can’t fathom how someone could behave in a moral fashion without some supernatural being holding them accountable, or they want people to think they can’t fathom this. (source)
Some Christians, perhaps, think that. I, however, do not. And I would like to see where I have ever represented atheists as amoral and selfish. Indeed, some atheists are more moral and far less selfish than Christians–and one in particular, who goes by PariahJane at the RRS boards, has done at least one good deed that I would never even consider. Many atheists are more knowledgeable about the Bible than Christians, which I’ve seen proven time and again on the RRS discussion boards.
We can compare and contrast, but without God and without Scriptural authority, we are still left in a lurch as to who decides what is good and what is evil. Before he became emperor, Palpatine described moral goodness as a “point of view.” Is that what it is? Or is moral goodness something objective, something that we can point to and recognize? If the latter, then we are still left with the question, “Who decides what is moral and what is immoral?”
Jeff actually proves this point himself. One commenter, HarveyOne, said that atheists lead less sexually moral lives than Christians. Jeff responds first with this question:
I’m not sure about that, harvey. First, I think you have to determine what amounts to “sexually immoral.” I honestly don’t know. Having sex outside of marriage? Infidelity? Unprotected sex? Massive orgies? Beastiality? I don’t think it’s fair to judge non-Christians by Christian definitions of “immoral,” i.e. sex before marriage. (emphasis added)
Make no mistake: I’m not saying that atheists are immoral. I really can’t make that assessment; I’m not claiming omnipotence. All I’m saying is that without God, the definition of morality is left open to the individual. And the postmodern mindset becomes a serious barrier: what is moral for me is not moral for you. Now we’re in a mess.
Jeff shows his misunderstanding of Christian teachings later in the combox:
It’s just, while Christians’ consequences come in a theoretical “afterlife,” our consequences come in this one. There are major problems involved in basing your moral compass on what might happen to you after your death, chief among them that no one really knows what is involved in the afterlife, and even many Christians say “Heaven is whatever you want it to be.”
Atheists seem to think that we place more emphasis on the afterlife than the present life. While we look forward to the afterlife, we certainly have much work to do in this present life. The Bible places all of its emphasis on the here and now, and very little mind is paid to Heaven. Although Hell is described pretty clearly as a place that is best avoided.
Maybe to a certain extent, Christians do place much emphasis on the afterlife. But what is it about this present life that many of us want to ignore? There really are severe consequences in this life should we ignore the moral precepts given us by God. I think that Jeff says this better than any Christian writings on the topic: “This moment is all we’re guaranteed. Nothing more. Live it to its fullest.” Beautiful sentiment, but it lacks definition: How do we live life to the fullest? Are we back to defining all of this for ourselves, or is there an objective definition?
Thanks for the trackback, Cory. It’s always appreciated. I very much enjoy reasoned discussion amongst those with whom I disagree.
You’re absolutely right that, without the Bible, morality is left in some part up to the individual. But that’s not what you said in your earlier post. You asked (and this is a paraphrase because I’m, typically, too lazy to go back and get the exact quote) “Without God, what reason would you have to be moral?” Why not just say, “Without God, your life is largely up to you” instead of inferring that Atheists have no reason to be good people? I think this was what caught my eye in your post.
The question that comes up with a lot of this “morality” is who decides it’s wrong. You’re making an invisible man the authority on what you should and shouldn’t do. Why? Why do we need a consistent set of morals across a society? We certainly have laws to regulate much of what you might consider in that realm (no alcohol on Sundays in Georgia, no gay marriage, no beastiality, etc.).
And when I said “I don’t know” what’s considered sexually immoral, I meant I don’t know what he meant as sexually immoral. I know what it means to me, but I have no way of knowing what it means to him without him telling me.
Thanks again for commenting on my post, Cory. Feel free to visit my site any time. It’s always good to receive some counterpoints rather than it being a big Atheist Hugfest. Have a great weekend.
Here you go:
Some fine lessons on ‘moral’ behavior by people espousing your same ideology.
atheismsucks.blogspot.com
From there he links to other wonderful examples that make me proud to disassociate myself from that piece of humanity.
Josh:
I, too, distance myself from Frank’s ministry.
That sort of rhetoric is mean-spirited and would have no place on this website.
Are you providing this URL as a way of saying that Christians no better adhere to proposed morality than atheists? Because if you are, you should know that I have never, nor will ever, argue that point.
I distance myself from Frank’s ministry precisely because it espouses the very same tactics that your own RRS uses in its quest to “defeat” religion. As Christians, we are not supposed to use the weapons of the world, because we are chosen out of the world (as the Bible teaches). We are called to be perfect, as our heavenly father is perfect. Frank Walton is nothing more than the worst sort of “cultural Christianity,” never really rising above what he is trying to destroy.